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  1. #1
    Been Doing This Before You Were Born olhand's Avatar
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    Starting A Fire.......... maybe

    http://www1.ae911truth.org/ Architects/Engineers (this being VERY important. Great 1hr docu here.)

    http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/ Obvious

    http://pl911truth.com/ Political Leaders (from the world over)

    http://www.mo911truth.org/ Military Officers

    http://mediafor911truth.org/ Obvious

    http://l911t.com/ Lawyers

    http://mp911truth.org/ Medical Professionals


    And there are many more. From all over the world. But there is 1 (one) industry missing. Wanna guess?
    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito >Virgil< Carpe diem! >Horace< Per diem mofo!! >The new GREEN hand<

  2. #2
    Road Warrior
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    How do you explain all the video footage showing the jets crashing into the WTC.
    OR all the cell phone calls to loved ones stating their airplane had been hijacked?
    I get the conspiracy theory, but that does not explain OBL and his organization taking credit for the attacks.
    The explanation that we had students learning to fly on US soil and they all happened to board flights on 9/11 seems to be solid.
    Robert B Fox IV

  3. #3
    Been Doing This Before You Were Born olhand's Avatar
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    Hi Bob. Allow me to get my tinfoil hat with antenna squared away and I'll address your question(s). :>)

    On a more serious note....
    I do not question anything you've said (except the OBL "taking credit" video). It's almost 14 years since these events took place. A lot of time to shake the initial trauma and start realizing most of the explanations we have been given are BS. No dispute that 2 large planes hit WTC 1&2. It's what happened in the next 8 hours that I question. Why did WTC 7 fall? For that matter - why did WTC 1&2 fall? These are the questions I, and a whole bunch of more knowledgeable folks have.

    Take the time to watch the architects and engineers' video I refd above. This is their old site and has a 1 hr video link just under Ed Asners picture. http://www1.ae911truth.org Watch the video and tell me what you think.

    Thanks
    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito >Virgil< Carpe diem! >Horace< Per diem mofo!! >The new GREEN hand<

  4. #4
    Road Warrior
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    That was funny. Let me get my hat on...

    In my opinion the towers buildings experienced trauma whereby the structures could no longer support the weight.
    Just like a crane that collapses for no apparent reason - well we all know the reason - fatigue, over-limit, high wind, no conspiracy, no explosives, just people working a piece of equipment beyond it's design limits.
    The towers were designed to withstand a hit, but they did not plan on a high speed hit and the ensuing fire.

    PS - if it was a conspiracy why did an explosion not collapse the expected DC target (white house or capital) or the pentagon?

    In my opinion it was a terrorist attack, well planned and executed by 17 men bent on hurting America - they did not use explosives - they used box cutters.
    Robert B Fox IV

  5. #5
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRPWLqc5T20

    Look at the hole in the Pentagon wall (1:40 into the video) and tell me that was a "plane", and THEN tell me where the wings are.

    CNN reporter says the same thing that day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Bn_CC_mrg
    Last edited by MrMulticraft; 06-04-2015 at 11:22 PM.

  6. #6
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    To answer your question Bob they needed to look "vulnerable" not incompetent. A successful attack on the White House and even a "near miss" would have been too great a blow to the national pride that would have demanded better answers. (not to mention they couldn't get in to booby trap it in advance).

    The Pentagon was possibly hit by a drone but most likely a cruise missile (something like this): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-158_JASSM prototype without the penetrator warhead for a few simple reasons. NO airline could have impacted that low to the ground, and it left no debris. (seats, luggage, interior panels and fixtures, bodies etc.)

    * the cruise missile has an 8' wingspan (I'd guess it's fairly consistent with the size of the impact penetration in the outer wall)
    * it was likely a "shell" packed with standard explosives since a penetrator warhead would have done more damage and would likely have gone all the way through to the inner courtyard.
    * it only costs about $700k (less as equipped)
    * it only weighs a ton so it's light enough to be launched from something as small as a modified Gulfstream like this: http://www.gulfstream.com/aircraft/gulfstream-g450
    ( the Gulfstream has sufficient payload, over a 4000 nautical mile range, can hit 600 MPH and can take off and land under "visual only" conditions in a private 3000' runway which does not involve military clearances, FAA ATC support or raise suspicions from a casual observer).

    If you want to get into "why" I suggest you look at the targets. The point of impact for One WTC was Marsh & McLennan which occupied 8 floors 7 of which were hit. The point of impact for Two WTC was in my opinion intended to be Morgan Stanley which occupied 16 floors but they missed. The actual impact point and Morgan Stanley offices are separated by 2 "mechanical" floors.

    Morgan Stanley reported about 3.6 billion in revenue in 2001. Today they have revenue of 37 billion in 2013 and over $2 trillion dollars in "assets under management". Marsh and McLennan reports about $13 billion in revenue last year. I couldn't locate their 2001 financial statement.

    Did I mention of the 3700 Morgan Stanley employees working on those 16 floors that they lost a total of 13? Were they "tipped off" not to come to work?

    As far as the planes themselves consider this:

    A 767-300 holds about 260 passengers yet AA flight 11 Boston to LA had only 92 onboard (35% full). UA flight 175 (also a 767) had 65 people onboard. (25% full).

    A 757-200 holds about 180 passenger yet AA flight 77 Washington Dulles to LA had 64 people onboard. (again 35% full). UA flight 93 Newark to San Fran had 44 people onboard. (24% full).

    Question: When was the last time YOU flew between major hubs on a flight that was between 25% - 35% booked? Could 5 "hijackers" per flight hold off a full plane if there were those who knew they could take back the flight?
    Last edited by MrMulticraft; 06-06-2015 at 06:23 PM.

  7. #7
    Road Warrior
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    The conspiracy folks want to say it was staged, that there were bombs or drones AND then that the airplanes which were hijacked were only partly full. I don't think you can have it both ways - some of the videos claim the airplane that went into the WTC was a military variant. As to the loss of life from some banks perhaps the fact that there was a good bit of time for most folks to escape. It was tragic and disturbing to watch those who could not escape take a leap to their deaths. It just clearly shows just how intense the fire caused by jet fuel was. What is remarkable I think is that so many folks managed to escape. Another thought to ponder - Can you imagine what kind of response the US public would have demanded if 30,000 or even 50,000 people had perished?
    Last edited by bobfoxiv; 06-08-2015 at 01:58 PM.
    Robert B Fox IV

  8. #8
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    Personally I just believe there are too many "coincidences" to be ignored completely.

    the WTC and Pentagon were separate and there's no way anyone can convince me that "hole in the wall" damage to the Pentagon was caused by an airliner.

    The WTC was hit by partly full planes. NO one has offered a plausible explanation why these flights on major routes were so far under booked.

    I don't dispute that 2 planes hit WTC but I do not believe they brought them down. I'll leave it to the engineers to do the stress analysis and all that but common sense tells me if there are 120 fewer people on the flight (and you assume an average of 200# per person including associated luggage etc.) the plane has 24,000# less and the "impact inertia" generated by another 12 tons would have been much higher than the weight alone.

    Look I never took Physics in HS I'm just a naturally smart ba$tard and it's like I used to tell my nephew in football when he said he couldn't tackle bigger fatter kids. I said there are 3 main principles at work here: Velocity, Mass, and Momentum.
    A smaller LEANER kid (leaner means having a denser body mass) can generate enough momentum if he runs fast enough, to EQUAL a slower fat kid with a lower body mass so when they collide head on they cancel each other out.

    Aluminum has much less molecular mass than steel and concrete and those planes simply could not generate enough speed (and therefore enough momentum) to cause the kind of structural failure necessary to drop those buildings EVEN after the fire!

    One other thing I failed to mention is the ignorance of the general public to believe the news reports that "jet fuel" burned so hot that it melted everything. That's just stupid. Jet A is roughly the same as a light viscosity diesel. The main difference is the EPA requires the #2 Diesel in my truck and welder to be low sulfur and Jet A is high sulfur. It is NOT "ultra flammable" like some moron's reported. That would be high-octane "AV Gas" for use in private planes and WWII PISTON engines, ... OK. But you can't directly compare Jet A, and Jet B to diesel because it does not have a typical "cetane" (a number index rating that applies to the volatility in piston driven engines which does not relate to turbines).

    Jet A is a mixture of several grades of hydrocarbons but it's OVERALL performance might be better compared to kerosene with the exception of Jet B which has more Naphtha (aka "white gas", Coleman cooking fuel etc.) added to enhance lower temperature performance and viscosity. I'm fairly sure there was NO Jet B present in September in anything but Antarctic flights.

    The ONLY way to get Jet fuel to burn that hot is to force in combustion air (as it occurs in a jet turbine engine) or in a fuel oil heater that needs a FAN to raise the OXY/FUEL ratio to create a rapid combustion rate.

    ... SO ... in order to convince me here's what you gotta do:
    FIRST calculate the amount of fuel in the plane
    NEXT calculate how big a fire that fuel is capable of (measured in "calories")
    THEN figure out the wind speed on 911
    FROM THERE you can determine an approximate oxygen / fuel ratio (taking into account altitude of the buildings and the speed of the wind to fuel the fire) ... and an approximate 'burn time" it would take to expend the number of calories in the planes fuel.
    ALMOST DONE look around your office and determine how long it would take to consume your computer, carpet, desk and the picture of your wife (covering the picture of your GIRLFRIEND) on the desk and add those calories
    FINALLY ... Go to this site: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html and DO THE MATH to figure out the amount of time and the number of calories to burn through this much steel.

    GOOD LUCK ... talk to you in another 15 years.
    Last edited by MrMulticraft; 06-08-2015 at 03:33 PM.

  9. #9
    Road Warrior
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    I'll save you some reading if you want. The CORE columns (Ironheads who hang big steel will get a kick out of this) were 54" x 22" but instead of being standard "I" beams (which you can imagine has 1 web pointing north and south and two flanges pointing east and west) THESE columns have TWO webs and TWO flanges making a big rectangular tube standing on end.

    You can visualize the size of ONE column if you take 3 sheets of plywood, rip one down the middle, make a box and stand it up 8' in the air. 24"x 48" is not the exact dimensions but it gives you an idea ... of course each of the 48 CORE columns weren't plywood they were 4" thick steel and gradually tapered as they went up.

    The architectural drawings in this link http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evid...lueprints.html don't show the thickness of each member only the fabrication detail drawings would but for any of us that have spent time in the field working on big sh1t it's not hard to understand and there's nothing here I disagree with.

  10. #10
    Road Warrior
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    OK - I let it rest.
    New discussion - what happens if Greece defaults on their IMF loan at the end of the month?
    Robert B Fox IV

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